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meno-第9章

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ever was a good teacher; of his own virtue?



  Any。 Yes certainly;…if he wanted to be so。



  Soc。 But would he not have wanted? He would; at any rate; have



desired to make his own son a good man and a gentleman; he could not



have been jealous of him; or have intentionally abstained from



imparting to him his own virtue。 Did you never hear that he made his



son Cleophantus a famous horseman; and had him taught to stand upright



on horseback and hurl a javelin; and to do many other marvellous



things; and in anything which could be learned from a master he was



well trained? Have you not heard from our elders of him?



  Any。 I have。



  Soc。 Then no one could say that his son showed any want of capacity?



  Any。 Very likely not。



  Soc。 But did any one; old or young; ever say in your hearing that



Cleophantus; son of Themistocles; was a wise or good man; as his



father was?



  Any。 I have certainly never heard any one say so。



  Soc。 And if virtue could have been taught; would his father



Themistocles have sought to train him in these minor



accomplishments; and allowed him who; as you must remember; was his



own son; to be no better than his neighbours in those qualities in



which he himself excelled?



  Any。 Indeed; indeed; I think not。



  Soc。 Here was a teacher of virtue whom you admit to be among the



best men of the past。 Let us take another;…Aristides; the son of



Lysimachus: would you not acknowledge that he was a good man?



  Any。 To be sure I should。



  Soc。 And did not he train his son Lysimachus better than any other



Athenian in all that could be done for him by the help of masters? But



what has been the result? Is he a bit better than any other mortal? He



is an acquaintance of yours; and you see what he is like。 There is



Pericles; again; magnificent in his wisdom; and he; as you are



aware; had two sons; Paralus and Xanthippus。



  Any。 I know。



  Soc。 And you know; also; that he taught them to be unrivalled



horsemen; and had them trained in music and gymnastics and all sorts



of arts…in these respects they were on a level with the best…and had



he no wish to make good men of them? Nay; he must have wished it。



But virtue; as I suspect; could not be taught。 And that you may not



suppose the incompetent teachers to be only the meaner sort of



Athenians and few in number; remember again that Thucydides had two



sons; Melesias and Stephanus; whom; besides giving them a good



education in other things; he trained in wrestling; and they were



the best wrestlers in Athens: one of them he committed to the care



of Xanthias; and the other of Eudorus; who had the reputation of being



the most celebrated wrestlers of that day。 Do you remember them?



  Any。 I have heard of them。



  Soc。 Now; can there be a doubt that Thucydides; whose children



were taught things for which he had to spend money; would have



taught them to be good men; which would have cost him nothing; if



virtue could have been taught? Will you reply that he was a mean



man; and had not many friends among the Athenians and allies? Nay; but



he was of a great family; and a man of influence at Athens and in



all Hellas; and; if virtue could have been taught; he would have found



out some Athenian or foreigner who would have made good men of his



sons; if he could not himself spare the time from cares of state。 Once



more; I suspect; friend Anytus; that virtue is not a thing which can



be taught?



  Any。 Socrates; I think that you are too ready to speak evil of



men: and; if you will take my advice; I would recommend you to be



careful。 Perhaps there is no city in which it is not easier to do



men harm than to do them good; and this is certainly the case at



Athens; as I believe that you know。



  Soc。 O Meno; think that Anytus is in a rage。 And he may well be in a



rage; for he thinks; in the first place; that I am defaming these



gentlemen; and in the second place; he is of opinion that he is one of



them himself。 But some day he will know what is the meaning of



defamation; and if he ever does; he will forgive me。 Meanwhile I



will return to you; Meno; for I suppose that there are gentlemen in



your region too?



  Men。 Certainly there are。



  Soc。 And are they willing to teach the young? and do they profess to



be teachers? and do they agree that virtue is taught?



  Men。 No indeed; Socrates; they are anything but agreed; you may hear



them saying at one time that virtue can be taught; and then again



the reverse。



  Soc。 Can we call those teachers who do not acknowledge the



possibility of their own vocation?



  Men。 I think not; Socrates。



  Soc。 And what do you think of these Sophists; who are the only



professors? Do they seem to you to be teachers of virtue?



  Men。 I often wonder; Socrates; that Gorgias is never heard promising



to teach virtue: and when he hears others promising he only laughs



at them; but he thinks that men should be taught to speak。



  Soc。 Then do you not think that the Sophists are teachers?



  Men。 I cannot tell you; Socrates; like the rest of the world; I am



in doubt; and sometimes I think that they are teachers and sometimes



not。



  Soc。 And are you aware that not you only and other politicians



have doubts whether virtue can be taught or not; but that Theognis the



poet says the very same thing?



  Men。 Where does he say so?



  Soc。 In these elegiac verses:







  Eat and drink and sit with the mighty; and make yourself agreeable



to them; for from the good you will learn what is good; but if you mix



with the bad you will lose the intelligence which you already have。







Do you observe that here he seems to imply that virtue can be taught?



  Men。 Clearly。



  Soc。 But in some other verses he shifts about and says:







  If understanding could be created and put into a man; then they 'who



were able to perform this feat' would have obtained great rewards。







And again:…







  Never would a bad son have sprung from a good sire; for he would



have heard the voice of instruction; but not by teaching will you ever



make a bad man into a good one。







And this; as you may remark; is a contradiction of the other。



  Men。 Clearly。



  Soc。 And is there anything else of which the professors are affirmed



not only not to be teachers of others; but to be ignorant



themselves; and bad at the knowledge of that which they are professing



to teach? or is there anything about which even the acknowledged



〃gentlemen〃 are sometimes saying that 〃this thing can be taught;〃



and sometimes the opposite? Can you say that they are teachers in



any true sense whose ideas are in such confusion?



  Men。 I should say; certainly not。



  Soc。 But if neither the Sophists nor the gentlemen are teachers;



clearly there can be no other teachers?



  Men。 No。



  Soc。 And if th
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